Official: Iraq civilian deaths unjustified

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Official: Iraq civilian deaths unjustified

... Quote:
WASHINGTON - Investigators believe that their criminal investigation into the deaths of about two dozen Iraqi civilians points toward a conclusion that Marines committed unprovoked murders, a senior defense official said Friday.

The Marine Corps initially reported 15 deaths and said they were caused by a roadside bomb and an ensuing firefight with insurgents. A separate investigation is seeking to determine if Marines lied to cover up the killings.

The official, who discussed the matter on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to discuss the yet-to-be-completed investigation, said the evidence developed by investigators strongly indicates the killings last November in the insurgent-plagued city of Haditha in the western province of Anbar were unjustified.

The official did not disclose specific evidence. The incident, if confirmed, could be the most serious case of criminal misconduct by U.S. troops during three years of combat in Iraq

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Iraq civilian deaths unjustified. This doesn't surprise me and I'm sure there are more cases then this one that we may never hear about.
By YCON: posted on 27-5-2006

Really? It does not surprise you? Would you please elaborate, because this prior-service sergeant would love to hear your opinion on that.

Personally, I am not at all floored byt it as I can understand the rage the Marines might feel. An IED blows their friends to little bits, and yet nobody sees a damned thing while this is being planted. Nobody ever sees anything while these things are being planted.

This is the worst case we've seen since the war's start, and this pales in comparison to what is done to the Arabs by Arabs. This ain't CRAP comparared to what was done to the people by the previous "administration", and there were no investigations done by them, against them.
By Thomas_Crowne: posted on 27-5-2006

Sure sergeant, I can elaborate, There have been many stories from past wars where women and children have been raped and killed by military men. US military may not be as evil as the Arabs but there are those in the US military who can be just as bad.

It does not surprise me, it's happened in the past and it's happening now and it will happen in the future, for as long as the military can get away with it. I can imagine the rage and hatred some military men feel when they see their military friends killed by the Arabs and I can imagine some of them men wanting revenge.
By YCON: posted on 27-5-2006

there is a HUGE difference, and that difference warrants restraint from such "not surprised" comments, and that is that we do not condone such lack of restraint or discipline, and we do, in fact, punish the guilty after the investigation is complete and the guilty is found as such in a courts martial.

What would sound a helluva lot better is, "I'm not surprised that this nation, a nation that is still comparatively decent, finds such acts totally unacceptable and takes proper steps to enforce disciplne.

Let me make it VERY clear to you, the MILITARY does NOT try to get away with such actions. Contrary to what you might believe. Such a statement is backed by nothing, either past or present. If things remain the same, the same goes for the future.

At ease, civilian.
By Thomas_Crowne: posted on 27-5-2006

Yes sir sergeant, sir ;)

but it still doesn't surprise me

I know it's not approved by the military and I know when caught or investigated the military will be punished for their acts.

... Quote:

What would sound a helluva lot better is, "I'm not surprised that this nation, a nation that is still comparatively decent, finds such acts totally unacceptable and takes proper steps to enforce disciplne.


a nation where "majority" are decent - "majority rule"

The top offices in our government murder, rape, lie and steal, even the president. If caught and "We The People" find out, they will be punished. Since we don't find out most of the time, they get away with it.
By YCON: posted on 27-5-2006

*sigh*
This has nothing to do with the president or the generals; this is about a handful of Marines who watched too many of their brothers get their guts blown clean out of their bodies. This is about kids who are being destroyed by the enemy who dig holes and plant mines while the locals hide and watch. This is about young people who are so freaked in the head that they will probably never be the same, and it has NOTHING to do with a military that has a long history of policing itself trying to get away with anything.

I'm not surprised something like this happenbed, either, but for reasons that are much different than yours.
By Thomas_Crowne: posted on 29-5-2006

Having watched the gradual release of details of the Abu Ghraib interrogation and dehumanization program, and the resignations and courts martial proceeding from this, there is no doubting the systematic rejection of Conventions and basic human rights provisions by the most senior officials of the state of the US. No doubt at all.

But this stench and corruption does not cover or excuse every incident of soldiers' minds gone wrong in incidents killing civilians.

Each situation has to be looked at on its "merits" although that word is irrelevant to this circumstance.
By JJ&E: posted on 30-5-2006

Furthermore, one does not call a sergeant, "sir"

"Yes, Your Non-Commissioned Highness" would have sufficed.
By Thomas_Crowne: posted on 30-5-2006

ok you uncommissioned hineyache, no more sir for you. :P

I agree with JJ&E, a state of shock or rage does not excuse soldiers from killing civilians.

Like here in the states, if you see someone kill your brother and you go kill him. Your gonna go to prison for murder !!!

No excuses, no temperary insanity, murder is murder. Those soldiers are there to fight the enemy, not kill innocent civilians.
By YCON: posted on 31-5-2006

Really? I'm so glad that civilians who have never watched their friends get their freakin' asses blown out of trucks and jeeps are so quick to point out what is not acceptable. I'm glad to know that those who sit secure in the states, not having to know that the same people who wave at them and accept gifts of food and candy by day are the same ones who are either planting explosives or watching the explosives be planted.

Thank you so much for pointing out, from a sterile environment and from merely reading about the war as the news reporters want you to know, what is right and what is not.

This had nothing to do with the fact that this was not condoned or sponsored by the military and neither is it being covered up. Also, regardless of your insinuation that our kids make it a habit of losing their cool and striking out in VERY righteous indignation, our kids who are being destroyed on a daily basis by a bunch of true criminals are keeping their military bearing in a manner that would make those who took Normandy very proud.

Again, I am sure that those who are up to their elbows in their comrads' blood thank you all for pointing out morality from the comfort of the TV room.

I'm done. Enjoy your righteous selves.
By Thomas_Crowne: posted on 1-6-2006

TC I don't care how upset you get over this, we have a right to state our opinions. The point is, some military members kill innocent civilians and some of them get away with it.

I know some civilians plant bombs and they deserve to be killed by the troops.

We don't always know which family member planted a bomb, so which member does a soldier kill to get revenge for his buddies death? The whole family?
By YCON: posted on 1-6-2006

At times in the fine and honorable tradition of the military it would be whole villages.
By JJ&E: posted on 2-6-2006

Let me make this clear, even though that I said I was done.

Please try and keep your conversation straight. You have flipped and flopped, and I responded to your first ignorant and erroneous statement that the military will continue to do this as long as it can gtet away with it. This is supported by no facts, and is nothing more than a biased statement fueled by ignorance of the military.

As I said before, the military as an establishment does NOT condone such activities, no matter what either of you mistakenly believe. Furthermore, the average Joe-G.I. does not have such a heart, either. On normal days, those who commited such acts probably don't either, but they are doing things, and being subjected to horrors that you, sitting in your chair and stuffing yor face with potatoe chips and washing them down with nice cold cokes from the fridge that is a few feet away cannot imagine. My point is, you, understanding nothing of military discipline and indoctrination, knowing nothing of the training and tradition, to sit there and make biased and unsubstantiated claims in the security and comfort of your house....that is to say, as you cannot even start to imagine your friends being blown to hell on a daily basis by people that the other "civilians" know are there and even know where they are but say nothing...for you to make smug and condescending claims that indict the military, is BS.

I do not get mad because of facts, I get mad at ignorance. For you to say that you don't care how mad I get, as if you are speking some kind of enlightning truth that I can't handle, is also as erroneous as your first statment, the statement that you KNEW was unsupportable, that you tried to changte in the conversation.

Speaking of indignation, I am still waiting for your indictment of those who slaughtered the school children yesterday, or those who have now taken 50 civilians hostage. Or those who blow dozens of civilians up every day over there. You seems to be quick to throw rocks at an isolated incident involving the U.S. Marines, even though you couldn't carry the lunch box of the weakest of such great men.
By Thomas_Crowne: posted on 6-6-2006

To remind you of yor condescending indictment of those brave men who are watching their friends get blown to bit...."Iraq civilian deaths unjustified. This doesn't surprise me and I'm sure there are more cases then this one that we may never hear about. "

As if you are so smart about either the military establishment or these youngsters.

I can't tell you how mad I am, but not because of any facts.
By Thomas_Crowne: posted on 6-6-2006

TC, you don't have to remind me of what I said. I know what I said and still stand by it. It's you who feels you know everything because you've been in the army. Your opinions lean towards the defense of the troops which is understandable, but may not always be right.

I've known you long enough to know that your mind is set in it's ways and will not change easily. (edit out) The point here is that, you don't know when to stand down, sergeant!

The unjust killings of civilians by US troops is not ok. It doesn't matter what reason it was done for. When a civilian gets involved with road side bombs or any kind of threat against US troops, they should be arrested. When troops kill families, women, elderly and children included, it is wrong. I don't care how many buddies a soldier has seen killed, it doesn't make it ok or justified.

One more thing TC, it doesn't matter if I know the military establishment or not. I know the difference between right and wrong. The military has their policies and doesn't promote this kind of behavior, I have never denied that. My original statement, "This doesn't surprise me and I'm sure there are more cases then this one that we may never hear about." Lets break down my statement. "This doesn't surprise me" it doesn't surprise me that civilians were killed unjustly. Does it surprise you TC? Have you ever witnessed or heard about unjust civilian killings? The last part of my statement "I'm sure there are more cases then this one that we may never hear about." This statement simply suggests that there have been or may be future cases of unjust civilian deaths, that we may never hear about. If you agree that there has been unjust civilian deaths in the past, I'm sure you'll agree that some may not be reported.

Your anger is just because I took the iraqi civilians side, rather then the US troop side. Your response to my original statement, "I am not at all floored by it as I can understand the rage the Marines might feel." Does the rage of the marines make it ok? or understandable?
By YCON: posted on 6-6-2006

It does not surprise me, it's happened in the past and it's happening now and it will happen in the future, for as long as the military can get away with it.

Who do you think you are to say that the military will do this as long as they can get away with it? The nerve of you to sit in your secure little existence and say such a thing!

For your civilian edification, so that you will know what you ignorantly stand by, the military, especially the Navy and its department, the Marines, are steeped in history and tradition. Honor and duty are not just hollow words, and the military does not try and get away with any of the likes. Furthermore, the servicemen also do not condone such behavior as it brings discredit upon themsleves as well as their military.
Furthermore, it increases the danger to them and their brothers at arms, while at the same time giving people who are empty of facts but full of ignorant bias fodder with which to knuckle-pound a keyboard and piously type condescending and negative judgemental statements about the very entities that allow ignorance the freedom and liberty to flourish.

You do not have to sit in your comfy little cottage and preach to me what is right and what is wrong, as I did not say that murder is acceptable. Neither have you heard any other soldier say such a thing, and furthermore, your simple declaration of what is right and what is not is not needed. What I was making clear to you is that you have NO FREAKING IDEA what these guys are going through and you have no idea what drove these hometown boys to do such a thing. You may think, while sitting in front of your computer with a fresh donut in one hand a Fridgadaire-chilled diet Coke in the other, that they are no different than the regular crack-head that killed someone for drug money, but you are wrong. You haven't a clue, nor are you cognizant enough to realize you need a clue. Even when compared to these guys who MIGHT have commited such an atrocity (I'll wait until all the facts are in if you don't mind), you don't even rank high enough to carry there lunch box so don't sit back on your Lazy Boy throne and pretend to cast judgement or preach what is right or wrong. there are mechanisms in place within the military for such judgements, and they are called courts-martials. They will be judged by fellow military men; folks who know what these guys have gone through, and servicemen who take pride in their service.

To make it clear enough so that the dead can see this, you did NOT take the civilian side. You took a condescending side against the U.S. military, claiming that they want to get away with murder and will do so as long as they can. That is not taking the civilian side. You don't even know where the civilian side is. Want to run and take a civilian side? Speak up about the teens who were dragged off a bus by Arabs and shot, along with old men. Presumably this was done by Sunnis as 4 Sunnis on the bus were spared. Raise your voice and speak up about the recent 50 kidnappings from the bus station, why don't ytou? And, when you do, use the same all-knowing and pious attitude about these people who ARE conducting day to day atrocities and leave the U.S. military institution, which takes pride in honor and duty, alone.
Were your baseless indictments founded in reality, you'd never hear of the atrocities, anyway. They'd be nothing more than mere rumor, just as with your other claims of rapes and murders and all the rest.
By Thomas_Crowne: posted on 7-6-2006








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